I asked Don about his famed trip to Jamaica with John Lydon (after the Pistols split up as a consequence of internal struggles with Mclaren, Sid's demise, and their increasingly surreal "progression" through the redneck bars and country music halls of the deep south in America) the "reggae Dons" they met, and the films Don Letts made there. Also how had his relationship developed with John Lydon, who by that time had obviously been long planning a very different musical venture from the Pistols. Knowing John Lydon's deep love for roots and culture music, it was hardly surprising that the first two Public Image albums were so heavily influenced by the spatial dynamics of bass and drum dub-wise music. Some have conjectured that Lydon formed the embryo of the idea of the bass heavy structures in PIL from his trip to Jamaica, and the sound system dances they attended together there. Don is not so convinced that the trip to JA was as formative an influence on Public Image as some have presumed.

Big Youth & JR

DL: No, John already had that spaciousness, that blueprint in his mind long before we went to Jamaica. As long as I knew John, he had always listened to sparse avant-garde music, stuff like Can , and he really knew his reggae, I have to emphasise that, him and Joe Strummer, Paul Simonon, Jah Wobble, they understood dub, deeply, they had a lot of music I didn't have you know. Lydon, Wobble and the others, they were turning me on to tunes I never had, it wasn't always the other way round. [Of this, Keith Levene has commented too: "I was always into hard roots music: I remember fighting and scrapping with other kids when I was just a young kid myself, cos someone had knicked some of my reggae tunes..."Tighten Up" I think it was… so at that time I knew my reggae, and wasn't relying on anyone else for an introduction. Later on it was people like Keith Hudson who I listened to. I loved his music"] We went to a lot of sound system sessions here in London too, people like Jah Shaka, Coxsonne, Moa Ambessa, so really, his experiences in Jamaica were an extension of what had already been in his mind for years, back in North London. Isn't that just so obvious when you listen to those early PiL tunes, the stuff he was making with Wobble and Keith just after he left the Pistols.

Branson had financed the whole journey, as a chance for Lydon to "cool off", and at the same time he was to act as a talent scout, signing up emerging reggae stars for the new Frontline roots label. Whilst in Jamaica, Letts and Lydon had met all their "heroes" on the roots and culture scene of that time: rebels, visionaries, chanters and mavericks, microphone chanters like Prince Far I, Big Youth and I Roy and deeply spiritual singers like The Congos, musicians who had produced some of the greatest spiritual masterpieces of their time.

DL: You know, sometimes me and John just had to pinch ourselves to remind ourselves that we weren't dreaming all this! It was great for us to be meeting and working with these guys, guys whose music we really admired and loved!
 

What did the Rastas make of Johnny Rotten? I had heard numerous stories and reports of John Rotten, dressed entirely in black from head to toe, clad in heavy black motorbike boots, black hat and heavy black woollen overcoat, walking through fruit markets in the heat of a full Jamaican summer! So was this fanciful rumour? DL: Yeah, it's not rumour, that's true! You know why he did that? John didn't want to go back to London with a tan! Respect to you John!

So what did the Rasta's make of John then?

DL: The Rastas loved John! To them he was "THE punk rock Don from London" they were aware of all the trouble he had stirred up in London, and yeah, they were into what he stood for and his stance, and they dug it… We smoked a chalice together with U Roy for breakfast, and then went out to one of his dances, miles out in the countryside, quite a long journey by car. I remember the dreads stringing up this sound, and kicking off with some earthquake dubs. Now let me tell you this sound system was LOUD, and me and John both of us, literally passed out! I remember hours later some dreads shaking us awake, it was like, "Wake up man, dance done, dance finish now man!" Yeah, it was pretty wild for me and John out in Jamaica. We loved it. John just had a vibe you know, people were drawn to him. It was the same in London; it was the same in Kingston. John is Irish, and there is a definite affinity between Jamaicans and Irish! We've all heard the saying "no Irish , no blacks, no dogs", which used to appear in pub and lodging windows and well, there must have been a reason for that, that ethnic grouping together, that ethnic rejection ! Jamaicans and Irish people have always got on together in England, though I can't say for sure why. A similar attitude to life perhaps? Who knows why they should tune in to each others psyches so well…Is it that both are oppressed peoples, or that both have a natural rebelliousness of spirit? Someone should do a study of it!
 

Do you think that you had become close to John Lydon in those embryonic days of early punk, and then later whilst in Jamaica? DL: Yes, I did, and I considered John to be a close friend, partly because we were both into hard drum and bass, dubwise, and partly because we were making our way together in this scene which was just unfolding, and was so, so vital.

How about the other Pistols, are you still in touch with them?

DL: Yeah, Glen and Paul live near me so, we see each other quite a bit, and talk, yeah we get on. Steve is out in the States so we don't see each other much, but we do get on. John I see when he comes back to London. Do we get on? Yeah. We were in to similar things, musically, like heavy roots music, and this was one of the reason we got on so well in the past, and I'd like to think we still do. John is an intense guy!

So you didn't feel at all fazed by meeting all these rebel spirit reggae musicians in Kingston who you had respected from afar for so long?

DL: No, not at all, perhaps it's partly down to my roots, my grounding in punk rock spirit, but no, I don't have any time for deification of any artist or musician. I can't be dealing with this tendency people have to mythologise, or to place an artist on a pedestal. I reject the idea of perceiving a creative endeavour as being something unattainable. And with some degree of effort most of us can achieve something worthwhile too. All my life I've railed and kicked against dogma and rhetoric: I've stuck my neck out. I'm the rebel dread.

So what influences and touches you these days, and what other things have been moulding influences on your mind?
 

DL: I consider that I am influenced by EVERYTHING! Musically, a heavy bass line moves me. Bass culture. My spirit has a natural inclination to sound and vision, and performance art still interests me. Film wise, of course Scorcese, "Mean Streets", Powell and Pressburger , "Orpheus", Cocteau's "LaTestament d' Orphee", I could go on and on, so many things have inspired me. He is emphatic in his parting words, "I have a natural resistance to being labelled or categorised. All my life I've railed and kicked against dogma and rhetoric. I've stuck my neck out. I'm the rebel dread."

ABOUT THE INTERVIEWER Greg Whitfield writes about music and art, and has produced work for the BBC and a number of art journals. He also writes promotional press releases and publicity copy for various London-based record companies.